Atkins Labcast: Episode 60 - Sally Brownbill, Photographer, Photographer's Agent, Mentor, Podcaster, Connector (Interview)
Paul is on the zoom with Sally Brownbill, a photographer, photographer's agent, mentor, podcaster, and connector. Sally has helped launch many photographic careers with her impressive network and knowledge of the industry and how to survive as a sole trader.
Helpful Links:
Sally's website
Apple - Spotify - Buzzsprout
TRANSCRIPT
Paul Atkins: 0:16
Welcome to the Atkins Labcast. This episode is recorded with Sally Brownbill dialing in from the land of the Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung people. That's the suburb of Richmond just out of Melbourne City. While I sit here on Kaurna land just outside of Adelaide's square mile. Sally is a fabulous force for good here in our Australian photographic industry. She's long been on the cutting edge of finding work for, championing and guiding photographers, and frankly, helping anyone who asks. Sally's gift is the clarity with which she sees herself. It's something we could all do more of. I find it inspiring. No one's going to push your own barrow, and in industry of soul traders, this is critical to understand. Sally also hosts a great podcast called When Harri Met Sally with a friend Harriet Tarbach, whom I'll be interviewing in coming weeks. So please enjoy this conversation with one of my favorite industry stores. Sounds like you talk too much, but we know you don't.
Sally Brownbill: 1:37
Maybe I do.
Paul Atkins: 1:38
Well, we all we all do. And I think that's why we do podcasts because it's so nice to talk to people and absolutely.
Sally Brownbill: 1:44
Well, thank you for having me, Paul. And it's great sitting here looking at South Australia in the back of uh your window.
Paul Atkins: 1:52
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So where are you calling from? Where am I calling you?
Sally Brownbill: 1:55
We I'm at my home in Richmond in Melbourne.
Paul Atkins: 1:58
So Richmond.
Sally Brownbill: 1:59
Yeah. So I work out of um uh it's I've sort of come full circle. Uh 25 years ago, I started working in this space when we built this house or renovated this house. And then um we had a daughter, and I moved out of home to work, and I've worked out of home for all of those years, and she moved out of home last year, and uh I just went, Well, what am I paying all this rent for at the moment? So I've moved back here into this beautiful space, which is like a mezzanine at the top of our house, and uh I love it.
Paul Atkins: 2:34
Gorgeous. It's gorgeous.
Sally Brownbill: 2:35
Yeah, it is gorgeous.
Paul Atkins: 2:36
So 25 years ago, you moved out of home to operate a business. Now, what did you start out of? What was your where did Sally start? Because it's all around photography, isn't it?
Sally Brownbill: 2:48
Well, yes, it started out to be all around photography, but then it's sort of immersed into design and advertising as well. So um I started out, I did a degree in photography at RMIT and became a commercial photographer. And did you not know that?
Paul Atkins: 3:04
No, but I I want to I I did know that you were a photographer, but I had no idea. Can we go back a step forward? Why would you do a degree in photography? Why would you want to take that on?
Sally Brownbill: 3:15
Because uh when I was at school, I was a little bit naughty, and um I might have been asked to leave one of the schools I was at for 11 years that my mother was the president of. And I ended up at another school, and they offered photography as a subject, and I was the only one that did it in what was then HSC, and bloody good at it. And the lect the teacher said to me, Are you gonna make this a career? And I went, What? And uh so he told me to go to uh a couple of open days. So I went to what was back then Peran College, and I also went to RMIT and I got into RMIT and I thought, right, this is it, I'm gonna become a commercial photographer.
Paul Atkins: 3:58
And so were the parties there as good as they were in high school that you got kicked out of?
Sally Brownbill: 4:02
100%. And it was back in the day where we were all friends with the lecturers, like we were all we I came from uh a year at RMIT that was particularly special. We had some extraordinary people, and and it was, I'm not downplaying what it's like now, but um, you know, two, three hundred people would apply, and 30 were let in each year, and out of that 30, maybe 10 or 15 would actually graduate.
Paul Atkins: 4:28
Yeah.
Sally Brownbill: 4:29
So it was a really tough course, and it was all about your photography. It was all about have you have you done it, have you got it, have you finished it, move through. And if you haven't, don't come back. So it's a education was very different back then, and and it was tougher, but we were also very good friends with each other and we supported each other. And I came from a year level with people like um Kim Tonelli, Heather Dinas, Daniela Federici, who's in Hollywood now, Tracy Rowe, who's a really well-known TV director, Jeff Moorefoot, who started the Ballarat Biennale. Um, and the list, and Sally Brownville, what about her?
Paul Atkins: 5:05
What about Sally?
Sally Brownbill: 5:06
I know. We were we were a really unique group of people um that have most of us have continued lifelong journeys through photography. And some varied, like Tracy went into TV directing, and I ended up in lecturing and working in all all sorts of other areas in film and television, and and now what I do, which we'll talk about later. Um, but it was a it was a time where we were allowed to be.
Paul Atkins: 5:35
Yeah. And we did so much pressure on uni now. Like everything was a three or four-year degree is now a one-year degree or maybe two if you're lucky. And it's there's a lot of pressure, and there's a lot more people because it's it's business, it's money, isn't it?
Sally Brownbill: 5:49
Well, it's all it's all about we are so aware of what everybody else is doing. Whereas back then we were pretty much aware of what happened within our own little universe.
Paul Atkins: 5:58
Yeah.
Sally Brownbill: 5:58
And we became very good at networking, very good at location searching, very good at hunting, very good at hunting in the sense of hunting for work or helping each other out. Jobs would come into the university. My first job came in from a bus touring company, and they wanted somebody that was outgoing, that loved taking photographs of people that wanted to travel on a bus up and down Australia. And I got the job. And that and that was my very first job in the third year. Um, and it was just like it was a camping holiday for German tourists. So I managed to bullshit my way in, never couldn't speak German and never been camping, but it all ended up well.
Paul Atkins: 6:39
Was that the last time you went camping after that?
Sally Brownbill: 6:42
Oh God, no. Do you know what? Ironically, many years later, I came back to Australia after living in Europe for years working in film and television with an English friend, and he and I spent a year driving around Australia living in a two-man tent in a red Datson 180B.
Paul Atkins: 6:57
Oh, wow.
Sally Brownbill: 6:57
So, you know, camping was in my blood and I didn't even know it. German wasn't, but that's okay. And um, and then when I came back, Jeff Moorefoot rang me and he said, Look, because we'd just graduated, and he said, Look, I've double booked myself. I'm assisting two photographers and I've sort of stuffed up the days. Can you help me with one of them? And I went, Oh, Jeffrey, I've just come off tour, you know. Oh, yeah, if you can't find anyone else anyway, um, I was fortunate enough to walk in the doors of the the very late and great Rick Wallace photographer.
Paul Atkins: 7:28
Wow.
Sally Brownbill: 7:29
And um, we I walked in in the minute and he was working on a huge Adidas shoot. Um, and uh I walked in and I basically never left. He just became one of the greatest mentors that I could ever have wished for. And um, and we worked together very closely for a very long time until he said to me, Right, you need to leave home, you need to grow up, you need to travel, go off for six months, see the world, and I'll be here waiting for you when you get back and you can start shooting out of my studio.
Paul Atkins: 8:01
So that's when you headed off to the UK, was that?
Sally Brownbill: 8:03
Yeah. So I headed off to the UK with um my portfolio that was 16 by 20 inch mounted photographs. It was like a fridge. I love those things. And I traipsed around and I ended up getting a job uh working at a TV network in Bristol, and I knew I only really wanted six to twelve months because I had already decided I wasn't going home, but I needed to make enough money to travel. And I got a job purely because I was Australian in a TV network, and I was got a job working for Rolf Harris.
Paul Atkins: 8:33
Well, like that's gotta be crazy. And look, were you a still's photographer in that role, or were you just yeah, like holding Rolf's wobbleboard? What was the story?
Sally Brownbill: 8:44
Went nowhere near his wobble balls. I just want to be uh bald, bored. Went nowhere. I was actually my job was way more important than anything. I would I answered his fan mail.
Paul Atkins: 8:56
Oh my god, wow.
Sally Brownbill: 8:57
Yes. Um, but what it made me realize was I I'm sort of one of these people that like I had done really well in photography. I had had this amazing assisting career. During assisting, I was shooting weddings. I'd really achieved an awful lot for a very young age because I started, you know, when I was just turned 18. Um, and I thought I really want to try new things. I'd already kind of gone, yep, photographer tick, what next? Um, and I really loved the film and television side of things. So after Rolfe, I made a lot of connections and I ended up in London working for HTV, uh sorry, that was in Bristol. I worked on the bill for Thames TV. Oh, lovely. But not for a huge amount of time and nothing fa fancy. Again, I was answering switchboards, but just being around creative people and seeing what they did. And throughout that time, I was also a um a dorbich in a nightclub, which was just near the London Art Directors Club.
Paul Atkins: 9:56
Oh, perfect.
Sally Brownbill: 9:57
Oh, yes. So I used to look after all sorts of things for them in the checkout room and not just coats. And I became good lots of friends with lots of people, and I met a really great woman there who worked in West End theatre, and she got me involved in a production where I did a little bit of everything. So I did a bit of stills photography, but mostly the exciting thing was the director would ask me to go to all of the shows in the West End and come back and report on them. What? I know who gets to do that.
Paul Atkins: 10:28
So I tell you who gets to do it, Sally does, because I I've, you know, there's a through line from all of this. And you said uh part of your education at RMIT was, you know, uh getting that going out and asking um for things and working out that how you get the next thing and how you step up and how you um you didn't say that, but I've heard this in the through line and of everything you said and everything I've known about you is you're really good at making those connections. Um, how much is that a part of where you are now, like your success?
Sally Brownbill: 11:02
It's everything, Paul. I um I I've actually just had to write something for university about half an hour ago, which is quite apt to this question. Um, I've never sat back and just waited for things to happen. I have made up my entire career. I have seen holes in the industry, gaps where perhaps I could help, and have just always gone to my gut and my heart about what it is that I want to do. So I have turned my passion into my job. And I think that's the success to my career, is that I am always challenging myself and going, wow, I want to do that now. And wow, I want to do that now, or an opportunity like when you and I spoke. Do you want to do that? Yes, I'll come and do that. Um, I've always been kind of freewheeling like that. And I guess my problem all those years ago in a private girl school was that I was tried to be put in a, you know, I tried to put a baby in the corner and it wasn't gonna work.
Paul Atkins: 11:58
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sally Brownbill: 12:00
Right. So I have um always worked with people like that as well about letting them be free and letting them be have that uniqueness about them. So it's hugely important to me.
Paul Atkins: 12:13
So how how close, um, and sorry, this is uh you know a bit of a personal question, but how close have you been to things not actually working and you having, you know, because it's hard swinging from thing to thing. Um, and there's times where there just appears to be nothing in front of you and you don't know where you're going. How many times has that happened in your life?
Sally Brownbill: 12:32
Oh, probably about three times a year. Oh gosh. Um, over many years, where you just go, maybe I should just get a full-time job. And then you talk to people important in your life for me, my husband, um, and he'll go, Can you imagine you working for someone else? And I'll go, uh, right, right, what am I gonna do? So I reinvent myself. And it's one of the things that Rick taught me. Like Rick started out in the rag trade photographing in fashion, and then he retrained and went into sort of doing, he said, I want to, I want to get into homewares, I want to one client that does a catalogue. So he got into shoes. Then he said, I'm gonna learn to fly a plane. And so he started doing aerials and off he went. And I kind of was bought up with that kind of hang on, I I'm gonna write a book now. Oh, okay, I'm gonna continue with lecturing, I want to get involved in design. Um, whatever it might be, I I've never been a person that overthinks things, and I will lose my my shit quite quickly and go, that hasn't worked. But then I very quickly go, okay, it hasn't worked. Full stop, new sentence, move on, what am I gonna do? And I've been I've been bought up like that, I guess. I don't hold on to things.
Paul Atkins: 13:50
That's really interesting. I mean, that do you feel though sometimes you've dropped things that you shouldn't have dropped?
Sally Brownbill: 13:56
No, never.
Paul Atkins: 13:58
Wow.
Sally Brownbill: 13:59
I know. Isn't that a bald?
Paul Atkins: 14:00
So can you teach that stuff? Because I look, I I I think you've got a personality type that does that. Um and my wife, she's like that too. She said there's not a well, she didn't, she it's different from what you just said, but she's always said there's not a bridge I'm not willing to burn. Um, and I don't feel like I can't do that because uh there's not a bridge I'm not willing to try and remake. It's my thing. I I just can't like I get the sweats thinking about what you've talked about, and yet you're a you're gonna survive better than I'm gonna survive on all this. I'm just lucky I've been able to hold it together.
Sally Brownbill: 14:33
I don't, I'm I'm an incredibly good time manager. I think there was times probably 10 years, I'm gonna say, hell no, no, no, so my mum died in 2014, and 2012 to 2015 were probably the toughest years of my career because I was trying to manage staff, I was trying to nurse my mum, I was trying to lecture, I was trying to run a business. There was a lot going on, and so that was a very, very hard time for me. And I look back on that, and yeah, I could have probably um handled some scenarios a lot better than I did. But having said that, um there's nothing like losing a parent, and I don't think I realized until many years later how deep I was into I I should have probably let stuff go then, and I didn't. And in fact, I did let the teaching go. I remember ringing the universities and saying, I can't do anything for a couple of years, I really just need to focus on mum. Um, and I'm so glad that I did that.
Paul Atkins: 15:33
Yeah, yeah.
Sally Brownbill: 15:34
And uh, and so then about a year or two after she died, I rang them all back again and I said, I don't want to run classes anymore, because that's what I had done when I came back from Europe. I want to just guest lecture and I want to be able to bring people into the universities, and and then that then came about with me consulting and all of those sorts of things.
Paul Atkins: 15:54
Do you think like, what would you say to someone like me who uh like this tactic that this making decision, I'm gonna try this out, it's not working, I'm gonna drop it. Like, how would you I know you do a lot of mentoring, and I know you've done a lot, I mean you've probably spent more time finding work for people than you have actually being a photographer or any of those any of those single things. What advice would you give to someone who's who's like um who probably hangs on to things a little bit? I mean, you could just say, I just don't hang on to things. It doesn't work that way, you know.
Sally Brownbill: 16:25
Like I think one of the best things, and I it's a good question, is well, one is don't overthink things, but that's really hard to say that to people.
Paul Atkins: 16:31
Like it's just a throwaway line, but it's But tell me what what do you think what do you say about overthinking? Give me an example of what an overthinking situation would be.
Sally Brownbill: 16:38
Okay, I've just got to write the other thing down, is um, because I don't want to because you cut me off.
Paul Atkins: 16:44
I know. First rule of podcasting is cut them off.
Sally Brownbill: 16:48
No, um okay, about the overthinking is um I had a young lady come in here the other day and I was designing her website for her. And she rang me up two days before and she said, I'm already up because I asked them to bring their images in on just six by four inch prints from Officeworks, so I can lay them out, everywhere, and start working through them, what's working, what's not, how it might look. And she rang me two days before, like almost in tears, to say, I'm up to 1,500 pictures. How many can I bring in? And I was and she said, Don't say that. My boyfriend told me I should have rang you weeks ago before I and I said, darling, if you photographed a guy drinking a glass of water in a blue shirt, I don't need 50 versions of it. Just bring one or two, and I might say, I really like this portrait. What else have you got? And we can look it on your laptop. And and she came in and I'll I'll actually be putting this testimonial out soon. But she just said, I just overthought everything so much. And I think the thing with the photographer with with photography is apart from overthinking, is I want to say to you all, you are not saving lives, right? No one is gonna die if you don't make that decision today, or if you make that decision that's not quite right. We all stuff up and we all go, whoa. It's like when I first made my first website back in, I think it was, I'm gonna say 2005. I went, right, I've done that, never have to do that again. And then all of a sudden I thought, oh shivers, I've I'm offering all these different services and I've got a creative, I've got to change it. And so now I change it probably every 18 months. Um, but yeah, don't overthink things. Um, always ask questions, right? If she'd rung me two weeks ago, she and in the end, this that young lady came here with um, I'm probably gonna say about 70 or 80 pictures, which was perfect. And then I'd say, Oh, I love that shot. What else have you got? And she'd get it up and we'd go, Oh, yeah, okay, that looks really cool. So um, so that's it. But you know, so many creatives are their own worst enemy, yeah. Um, and they're so hard on themselves. Whereas if you agree to work with someone like me, you need to allow that person to come in and work with you and help. And a problem shared is a problem halved. That's what I find. If you look through my testimonials or working people that have worked with me will say is like, I thought it was going to be so much tougher than this. I never, this girl the other day, she said, I never realized that I actually had a style. I thought my work was all over the place. But what you've made here is this looks like the same photographer. So that's one of the greatest joys for me, is yeah, is helping people to realize their own gift.
Paul Atkins: 19:23
And and so the letting go side of it, like this isn't working, like uh what advice would you give to say, like, how long would you give something to say this isn't working? Like, let's say I've been hammering away at being a photographer for six months, 12 months, or something. What stage and I'm feeling like I'm getting nowhere. What stage do you go, dude?
Sally Brownbill: 19:41
You shouldn't be a photographer, or well, no, I would never say that, but people will ring me with what you just said, or they'll say, I have applied, maybe they're a designer. I know we're talking specifically about photographers.
Paul Atkins: 19:51
No, no, creatives.
Sally Brownbill: 19:52
And creatives in general, they go, I've applied for 75 jobs, I've not got one response, or I've been looking for a job for 18 months, or I've shown my portfolio to 15 people, or nobody looks at my website. When people ring up and talk to me about that or write to me, there is something inherently that they are doing wrong. Right? Because that's not normal.
Paul Atkins: 20:14
Yep.
Sally Brownbill: 20:15
And it will either be the CV's wrong, the way they've written their cover letters wrong, the way they're representing themselves online is wrong. And I shouldn't use the word wrong because it's quite harsh, could be better. A lot of people don't research the marketplace well. They smell of a little bit of desperation, they're applying for all sorts of jobs that they're actually not really qualified for, or if they are qualified for it, they're keeping their folio from something else that they've showed to a different person. Um, and so, you know, there is there is work out there, right? It's been particularly hard this year.
Paul Atkins: 20:51
You think so?
Sally Brownbill: 20:52
Oh god, yeah, right across the board. Um, there's not been money, there's no budgets, Americans are coming in and buying up advertising agencies, people are losing jobs. It's been um a really tough year. However, there is still work being produced, but what people have to understand is they've got to know who their market is, they've got to know who to talk to. It's like, you know, talking with you and making sure I'm not gonna swear too much or you can swear.
Paul Atkins: 21:18
This is a sweary part podcast.
Sally Brownbill: 21:20
On the ABC, I can't say um, but it's it's about reading a room and understanding your space and doing your research. And so I had a very senior designer work with me a couple of weeks ago who has been unemployed for uh uh quite a long time, and and they shouldn't have been because they are hugely talented, but it was kind of like I do this, this, this, and this, and I can also do this, and I did that, and I can also in the future do this, and 20 years ago I did that, and it's like a focus, yeah. Woo! Right? You you're like rain man of design, okay? Like, what is it that you want to do? And at the end of it, they said to me, My goodness, this is just clarified so much because we all get so wound up in our own stuff, or we ask people that aren't really qualified, like partners or parents or children or best friends. And I think we just get all like wound up, and it's like my role is to be very clear about it. And if somebody came to me and they were truly a dreadful photographer, I would find something good in what they're showing me, whether it was their way they used colour, whether it was their portfolio case, whether it was their logo. Um, and I've had people ring me and say, Listen, I'm a uh my love is jewelry and I love jewelry photography, but I'm not seeming to be getting much work. I seem to just get portraits, and they'll turn up with me, and the whole folio is portraits. And I'll go, right. What about the jewelry? Well, that's what I really love. Whereas it well, I haven't had a chance to shoot any yet.
Paul Atkins: 22:56
Oh God.
Sally Brownbill: 22:57
They get so and that's not being dumb or anything, that's just getting so wound up with I love it. And then they and then they're going, oh my god, of course. And it sounds really simple when I talk about it, but when you're so enmeshed in something, you have to rem remove yourself. And I will often tell people that I have wonderful creative directors and people that just sit with me at certain times in the year and help me plan for the next 12 months. I do it every October I start, and what am I going to focus on next year? And we sit around talking about Sally Brownville. So I feel like I'm in a Seinfeld episode. But I've removed myself from my brand to think about what is my tone of voice and what is Sally Brownville and what does it represent. And that's really important to be able to take that step away and that old thing, which we hate people saying, don't take it personally, because I'm fucking good at what I do because I do take it personally, right? So it's yep, yep. But there's there's levels of taking it personally. You have to, I believe, be able to take on board conversation, but mostly you have to put out what it is that you want to be doing.
Paul Atkins: 24:04
Yes.
Sally Brownbill: 24:05
Right? Yeah, and and that's hugely important.
Paul Atkins: 24:08
And a lot of make sure people can see the things that that drive you, that bring you to the business where you want to be in. Make sure it's obvious to anyone that's what you're into.
Sally Brownbill: 24:19
And and and Paul, that then is becomes your uniqueness.
Paul Atkins: 24:22
Yeah. Yeah. Right?
Sally Brownbill: 24:23
Whether you're not trying to be like everybody else. Hold on to that. And look, and sometimes it's going to be easier than others. And so that's when we talk about running side by side. Maybe you run an art practice beside having a grown-up job where you earn money. And that might be anything from, you know, working, you know, at as a checkout person at Kohl's to make enough money to produce your art, or it might be just photographing yogurt containers regularly until you want to vomit, but it's paying money, and then you can do your photography in the side. And it builds up. I mean, when I first started out years ago, when I first came back to Australia, I taught two days a week. Uh, I taught 9 a.m. to 9 p.m. two days a week. And uh, and then I worked in design studios and I did new business for design studios and advertising agencies and sort of did account management in there or new business if I think the title was. Um, and it just got to a point where people go, Hey, can you help me with my folio? Hey, can you advise me on this? Hey, and I said to my husband, I actually think there's a business in this. But interesting. But I had to balance it. For a number of years, I did both things, right?
Paul Atkins: 25:33
So is that is that your business now, this sort of um helping people? Like it's an as it's an agent of sorts, is it? Or how would you how would you describe what you're doing?
Sally Brownbill: 25:43
Well, look, in the late 90s and early 2000s, I was a photographic agent. Um, and I had some amazing photographers on my books, and I went and I pounded the pavement and I got the work and then helped to produce it. I put a calendar together every year and had an exhibition, and that was pretty extraordinary. Today, agents are bookers, really. They're not pounding the pavement, they've got great photographers on their books who can be booked and they can manage and quote. I didn't want to do that. So I have a creative directory where people can pay a yearly subscription to be listed on that, and then I help to promote their businesses through I'm an extra marketing tool for them, if you like. I've also got a photography assistant register, so current students or recently graduated students can be listed on that.
Paul Atkins: 26:31
Um that has to be fairly valuable. I I do hear people lamenting the lack of those. Uh, you know, even here in Adelaide, people saying, you know, where is a if I'm coming to South Australia, where's it? And I get asked every couple of weeks, and I'm like, I don't know, you know, someone needs to put that together. Sally, get onto it.
Sally Brownbill: 26:49
It's on the Bramble effect, it's been there for years.
Paul Atkins: 26:51
Excellent.
Sally Brownbill: 26:52
So so there's that, and then there's the consulting side of things where I work with people from all parts of the creative industry, which is wonderful because they all feed off each other. So creative directors work with the photographers and the designers work with the finished artists and the retouchers, and so I consult with them. You know, there's people like you know, of of our age where they might come and say, I need a career change, or I'm gonna continue being a policeman until I retire, but my hobby is photography. Or it could be a student that has, I find a lot with the universities, they are wonderful at teaching them, but then when they leave uni, they're out in the big wide world. So I do a lot of stuff with kids in that in-between year. What next?
Paul Atkins: 27:33
So you've said a couple of times about uh showing your portfolio to get a job, and I know that's sort of mixed in with the idea of pitching yourself to clients uh because there's not a lot of actual jobs in photography as a photographer, being employed as a photographer in a corporation. Um, so a lot of people really need those skills as uh a small business operator. Um is that stuff as well that you're helping them with?
Sally Brownbill: 27:56
100%. I write CVs, I under I get the to talk to them about strategies on how to look for work, um, how to run a business, how to, you know, work with bookkeepers. But if I could just maybe correct you slightly, today more than ever, there are more full-time jobs in photography than ever before. But yeah, because so many companies have now got in-house studios. So enormous corporations like Spotlight, Adairs, Bed Bath and Table, all I'm assuming they're all over there and say, Yeah, yeah. Yep, all of those organizations, advertising agencies, they all have their own in-house studios and employ photographers full-time, more ever so ever than before. Like when I started out, it wasn't a thing, right? Um that that is uh important to understand how to apply for a full-time job. And you know, like when you get a degree or a diploma or a certificate in photography, I mean, that's the easy bit. You know how to take the pictures. The hard bit is understanding the business of being a photographer. And um, that's there is a lot of hugely talented people from all walks of industry that are not working much because they are not good at business. And there are a lot of not hugely talented people that are bloody good at business, that have found a niche, be it portraiture or dog photography or studio photography, whatever it might be. They're not terrible photographers, but they're they're very good at business, right? They understand about negotiating, about networking, they understand their price point, they've done their research, they understand their target audience. Um, you know, like a portrait photographer will charge a very small amount of money to do the portraits and then sting you when you bring your mother and your grandmother and your daughter in to look at them and they go, Oh my god, we're gonna have one of them, and I'm gonna have one of them, and I'm gonna have one of them. And that that that's that's their MO, and good luck to them.
Paul Atkins: 30:00
Yeah, yeah. I mean it's a tricky tricky business because it's a trust business. You haven't made the thing for the person, you know, until you've delivered the images. So it's almost like, well, I'm going to give you this and prove that I'm going to do something nice and then you're going to pay me for it. And and I think a lot of those businesses that have run that model where they probably we class it as stinging them, I don't think they can exist anymore. I think they uh everyone has to be up front with what it what people might end up paying when they walk out the door because they're not going to survive in business. And I think if anything has died in the industry, it's been that studio model. Um, which I think is a good thing. I think it's, you know, it's they're kind of impersonal.
Sally Brownbill: 30:40
Well, also the market is a lot more educated, isn't it?
Paul Atkins: 30:43
Very much so.
Sally Brownbill: 30:44
You know, because they've got Facebook and you look at wedding photography, how that's changed, and um all sorts of things, you know, and and and newborn photography and all those sorts of things that were sort of a little bit niche and unique. I mean, they're we can all look at them and and see what's being done. And and as a perhaps as somebody that's going to employ a photographer, I I know what I like and what I don't like because I am somebody that's well researched.
Paul Atkins: 31:10
Yeah, yeah. So so you and I both have our name on our businesses. Um photographers, you know, we just talked about what I've suggested that maybe the studio model is a thing which is uh probably a thing that we don't see as much anymore. Um in commercial world, they they certainly exist, but often it's one photographer with a space that they're renting to others rather than a studio that has a name that's not associated. And thinking commercial or wedding portrait, do you think do you see a business as a little more successful when it's directly connected with the the owner versus one that's just picks a nice name out of um out of a hat?
Sally Brownbill: 31:48
Well, I think over the years we've had some pretty in Melbourne and Sydney, we've had some pretty glamorous studios that have had, you know, like we had Heaven here for many years, you know, run by George Apostolides and Jean-Mart La Roque and those guys. And, you know, if you if you got to Heaven, you were pretty, you were pretty happy. Um so their their names went simultaneously with the name of their studio. I think that big studio model has probably waned a lot. And I think the easiest thing with social media and with marketing is to use your own name. Because that's, you know, if if you were to call it, you know, um streetlight, you know, streetlight printing. Um they'd like, oh, well, what's that guy's name who works there? It's like Paul Atkins printing or whatever. I know it's um using your name is fantastic, but it's also very much, I learned this again around the time that my mum was, you know, floating on. Um, I thought I got some really crap advice from someone once um to employ a lot of people to help me out. But I had named the business the Brown Bill Effect. So of course, nobody wanted to talk to anybody else. They wanted to talk to the brown bill.
Paul Atkins: 33:06
So that's the downside, right?
Sally Brownbill: 33:07
And that is the downside. But it's also you think of your GP, oh, my GP's called Susie, because Susie, though, she's on holidays. Would you like to see Paul or Fiona? No, I want to see Suzy. I'll wait till she comes back. You know, you become what I do is very what we do as photographers and creators is very personalized. They've picked us for a reason for our style, for our sensibility, for our humour, for our location. It's not like I'm not shopping around to see if I like the green or the pink pen. So your name is synonymous with with what it is that you're doing. So I think using your name is really important.
Paul Atkins: 33:46
Yeah, I know that debate comes up every now and then, and people go, Oh, I can't sell my business if it's my name, but that's not the case. You know.
Sally Brownbill: 33:53
No, you have as we talked about, you have to remove yourself from that and and your name becomes your brand.
Paul Atkins: 33:58
Yeah, yeah. So as you are working, you you're not talking about yourself in third person, the Seinfold kind of a way. You're talking about it to help you understand the way the personality of the business runs.
Sally Brownbill: 34:08
What livens me, what deadens me? What do I want? What am I projecting? What what what do I want to bounce out of bed every day and do? You know, what don't I want to? I don't want to do accounting. Right. Well, I will pay a bookkeeper every week for an hour to have a meeting with me and she can do my invoicing. You know, you get to that point, and you know, like I couldn't afford it, but I actually couldn't not afford to do it, you know. So it's understanding your budgeting and getting really good advice. Like I've had some rubbish advice a long time ago until I met Anne Marie, um, who I talk about a lot. Uh, I like if I didn't have her, I probably wouldn't have a business, to be honest. Uh and I think you've got to acknowledge your strengths, and and I have people around me that make me look fantastic. And every year I work with uh an honours design student from Swinburne University. I'm a um uh an industry uh fellow at Swinburne University. So I take on six students each year, or four to six students, and I work with them for I think it's 10 weeks, and out of one of them, I take that person on to work with me for 12 months.
Paul Atkins: 35:09
Oh wow. So this is like a mentoring program that also helps you identify someone who it's a long trial period, isn't it?
Sally Brownbill: 35:17
It's wonderful because I got sick of people working for me who you train up and then they go, I'm leaving. Whereas now they only stay with me from February to December, and then I get a new one. So I'm ready for it and it it livens me. They bring in all these different skill sets. I stay friends with all of the past ones, yes, and they help occasionally. And one past one designed one of my books because the current one wasn't really into doing that, so I find them a special project. This this year I have Shanille, and she's been hugely involved with when Harri met Sally, so that's been really exciting. Um, and you know, I've had two that have done books. I had last year Pan Pan design my beautiful calendar. So each year they have a special project to work with me on, but it keeps me young, you know, and it keeps fresh. And I reckon working for 10 to 12 months with someone, that's it. Great, next.
Paul Atkins: 36:11
Yeah, you don't feel bad about saying goodbye because you don't you don't lose time.
Sally Brownbill: 36:15
And you don't get you don't get that like, what do you mean you're leaving? Oh my god, it's like I've got a whole year to pick somebody else.
Paul Atkins: 36:21
I know that's a that's a lot of drama in that.
Sally Brownbill: 36:25
But it's like what Rick did to me, he threw me out after a period of time and said, Go and find yourself. Do you know what? Yes, I was six years away, and uh he was at the airport when I came home.
Paul Atkins: 36:37
Really?
Sally Brownbill: 36:38
I don't think he died during COVID and I dedicated my first book to him.
Paul Atkins: 36:44
I think I met him, but I I didn't really, other than a handshake at one of the big events.
Sally Brownbill: 36:49
Uh I said to him, we we had dinner, just the two of us, our partners couldn't make it, and he said, What are you gonna do if we go into lockdown? I said, I'm gonna write a book. And he goes, What about? And I went, That's photography. And he goes, Well, you're gonna have to dedicate it to me because I've taught you everything you know. Ho, ho, ho. And then he died three days later of a massive stroke.
Paul Atkins: 37:06
Oh, geez.
Sally Brownbill: 37:07
I mean, just completely out of the blue. So, you know, that's another thing with life. It's just like, if it feels right, do it. And if it fucks up, okay. Well, I gave it a go. I'm never gonna die wondering. We all make mistakes, I've made plenty, but you can't you learn from them and you've got to move on.
Paul Atkins: 37:23
Yeah, absolutely. So tell me about the book. Tell me about the the book. You've this is not your first book now. How many books have you got?
Sally Brownbill: 37:30
This is not my first radio. Hang on.
Paul Atkins: 37:32
This is not a first radio. She's going off to to the bookshelf.
Sally Brownbill: 37:35
Yep.
Paul Atkins: 37:36
I can see. Here we go.
Sally Brownbill: 37:38
Oh, we're back.
Paul Atkins: 37:39
Your greenness.
Sally Brownbill: 37:40
I'm very green today, aren't I? Um, this is the first book.
Paul Atkins: 37:44
How to develop your career as a photographer by Sally Brown.
Sally Brownbill: 37:48
And and so the dedication in there is to Rick.
Paul Atkins: 37:52
Oh, that's lovely.
Sally Brownbill: 37:53
Um, now with this book was really interesting because Marcus Thompson, who's a fantastic and very well-known photographer here, I'd worked with him for many, many, many years and did exhibitions and all sorts of folios and websites. So I knew his work intimately. And I created chapters based on his photography that I knew. Yes, and we wrote around that.
Paul Atkins: 38:14
Oh, right. That's clever.
Sally Brownbill: 38:16
Which was how I chose to do it. Um, and then with this book, which is my second book.
Paul Atkins: 38:22
Leap into your creative life.
Sally Brownbill: 38:24
This was a girl that worked with me who was the most extraordinary illustrator.
Paul Atkins: 38:30
Oh, those illustrations are gorgeous.
Sally Brownbill: 38:32
And she was very good at interpreting my words. So I wrote the chapters and gave her every chapter, and then she created the illustrations around the chapter. So they were both quite different ways of working. I wouldn't neither I prefer, it just I just have to go with what feels right. Um not going to talk about. I'm actually just coming up with chapter titles at the moment. Um, and I just think about things. I actually don't talk about it with anyone. I I swim a lot and I shower and I'm on the beach, and then all of a sudden one day I go bang, and then I just make it happen.
Paul Atkins: 39:10
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is that because you're afraid of someone pulling it apart before you get a chance to give it a go?
Sally Brownbill: 39:16
No, I just I'm not interested at that point in other people's ideas. I want them after I've put it all down.
Paul Atkins: 39:22
Wow, that's powerful.
Sally Brownbill: 39:23
And then I'll get the ideas. And I just am this morning working with a beautiful photographer, and I'm sure she won't mind me saying her name is Fiona Basile and or Basil. We um we she did a book two years ago called Immerse, and I edited the book with her, and she's just working on her second book, and we talked about that, and I spent five hours today with her doing the first edition edit, um, which is so exciting and so such a privilege for me to do that. But we talked about, you know, the order with which we do things, and and um, and and you just got to go with what works for you.
Paul Atkins: 39:59
Yeah, books are amazing things. I think they're they're underrated. I mean, uh an e-book is nice because you can jump in and out of it, but there's something linear and whole about it. It's like an album, uh, a an album, a record album that you listen to the first song, the last song. It's an exhibition, you know, it's as designed by the artist entirely.
Sally Brownbill: 40:19
The funny thing with printed books is they're flipping expensive to do, right?
Paul Atkins: 40:23
Yeah.
Sally Brownbill: 40:23
So my first book was an e-book, the the Bramble effect, uh, sorry, the um the photography one was an e-book. And because I made it, it was designed and and that wasn't that was didn't cost a lot, right?
Paul Atkins: 40:37
Yeah.
Sally Brownbill: 40:37
And so then this woman wrote to me one day and she said, Oh my god, I just want to tell you how much I love your book. And I've been to Kmart and I've printed it all out. Oh and it worked, what? And she said, Oh, and it's beautiful, and I've found it at Officeworks, and I'm there going, Oh, yeah, is this what people are doing? So then I I actually then when my Mento Pro was around, Libby and and uh Jeff of mine, and so we did a printed edition, a first I've now up to my third print edition, Bambra Press now prints the books. But I just thought, God, if people are printing it out at Kmart, that's completely so there is something special about a physical one.
Paul Atkins: 41:17
Oh, yeah, and the smell and the touch and the texture and the paper stock and and the space on the shelf that it takes, you know, and you see the three or four or whatever alongside each other, and you go, There's another one, one of my little babies, you know. That's wonderful.
Sally Brownbill: 41:31
And it's also um uh I like obviously I love talking. Um, so I do a lot of talks about the book, and um, you know, even if it's at a library or at a university or at a high school or just I think I think everyone's got a book in them, but but you've got to have, I don't know, I wasn't ready to do it until I did. If I if COVID hadn't happened, I might not have slowed down enough to have done it. COVID was actually quite good to me. It made me slow down because I do 50,000 things a day and I love it like that.
Paul Atkins: 42:05
Do you have attention deficit disorder?
Sally Brownbill: 42:09
She laughs nervously.
Paul Atkins: 42:12
You've never been tested, but you're suspicious.
Sally Brownbill: 42:15
I think we're all a little bit bonkers, aren't we?
Paul Atkins: 42:17
We are, we are, and we are, and it's far from being bonkers having ADD, it's just ADHD, whatever. It's just it's a it's a mindset of getting being able to not you know get something done in great time and then hop on to the next thing. It's a it's an amazing skill.
Sally Brownbill: 42:31
I um I do, but I do have, I'm gonna show you this, which is a visual, which we're gonna have to talk about. So I have a I have a print diary. Oh, I like how you colour it in with your love all my colours, but I also have great big strips of days where I go, no work.
Paul Atkins: 42:46
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you don't feel guilty on those days?
Sally Brownbill: 42:50
No. I go to our beach house, I swim or walk the dog every morning. Um here, I'm always or at the gym. I'd start the day very early and I'd get my exercise out of the way. Um, but no, I feel like you know, I work really hard. I'm just a really good time manager. But when I'm off, I'm off. Like that's it, I'm off.
Paul Atkins: 43:09
That's great. What a skill. So tell me, how did you meet Harriet and where did all that come about? Oh, she's Harriet Tarbuck, we're talking about now.
Sally Brownbill: 43:18
Harriet is the Harri in when Harri Met Sally. So Tom Goldner, her partner in the photo collective. Tom and I had worked together many years before for his first first exhibition. I helped him edit his first exhibition years and years ago. And then he had this idea to start the photo collective, and he and Harriet were friends, and he rang me one day and he said, We've got this idea to start a photo collective, and we've got a proposal. We'd like you to be on our board of directors. Could we come across and um show you our proposal? So they turned up with a few bits of paper, photocopy, um stuck together. What's that called?
Paul Atkins: 43:58
Uh staple.
Sally Brownbill: 43:59
Staple. Um, stapled together. And we looked at it and I went, wow, this is a really great idea. Yeah, do it, guys. And that's when I first met Harriet, and that was long time before COVID. And um we had crossed paths because I used to be an agent for the Decent Exposure guys. They were a studio with a name called Decent Exposure, and Harriet was the young when you talk to her, she'll talk about her time there. She was the young you know assistant for the studio. So I had bypassed her and everyone would go, Oh god, she's fantastic. So we kind of knew who each other were, but it was Tom that really introduced us. And then I became involved in Photo Collective, and then a couple of years ago, we were having a coffee together about the next year's sponsorship of Photo Collective. And I said, We she said, Are you happy with everything that's going? I said, Oh God, I am, but I don't know that I want to do EDMs anymore or write stuff. I feel like I want to, I don't know, maybe video or talk or and then one of us sort of said, What about a podcast? And I went, and we both kind of it was sort of we came together at the same time and just went, Oh, let's do a podcast. And I can't wait to hear her version of this, by the way, when you ask her. And um, and I said, We could call it when Harry/Harri met Sally. And then she just went, No, we can't. I go, Yes, we fucking can.
Paul Atkins: 45:20
It's a great name.
Sally Brownbill: 45:21
After we met, I rang my lawyer and I said, Would it be illegal to do it? And he went into the finalities of it. Um, and then I rang her and I said, Right, we've registered the name, we can do it. It's not a conflict with the movie. And she's like, Shit, we're actually doing this. I said, We're doing this, baby. Um, and then off it went. And then it was like, Well, what are we gonna do? And so we have now done two seasons, each um being 12 episodes. Um, plus we're now starting to do pop-ups, and we've just done the Ballarat International.
Paul Atkins: 45:55
Yeah, I enjoyed being a part of the audience of that. That was great.
Sally Brownbill: 45:58
That's where we caught up, which was fantastic, and we're just now planning planning season three, which is um we're really looking forward to. So we've decided again, it's about not putting that pressure on yourself for deadlines and and because we're both very busy people, we've decided if we do one uh season a year and a pop-up or two during that year, that's enough, rather than trying to commit to three or four seasons. And you know, we've both got to be very careful of each other's time and um situation and family situations, and she's got a young kid, and I've I've got a 96-year-old dad at the moment who's like having a five-year-old, and um, there's stuff going on, so we're very conscious of that with each other, and so there's no like no, there's no panic. And we've got a really lovely team around us that help us and um some wonderful sponsors, and we're looking at new sponsors too for season three.
Paul Atkins: 46:57
I know you've already asked me. So we're we're talking about it, and I think the podcast medium is just like you can tell, I love a good chat. Um, I think it's a really good medium. Uh the trick is is that you can see that all my favorite podcasts have worked on money monetization because you're all happy to do it for a while and give it away. But at some stage you go, wow, I'm putting all this time into this. Should be turning, should this be turning money around for us? And um, it's a tough, it's a tough gig, isn't it? That side of it, you know, turning it into a like something that actually pays for itself.
Sally Brownbill: 47:28
Yeah, as my husband says, an expression I can't stand, but I'm I can't even believe I'm gonna say it's got to wash its own face, right? Great for expression. He'll love that I've said that.
Paul Atkins: 47:38
So what does he what does he do? I know he's he he's made guitar music for the intro and outro, but what does he do that um gives him that sort of, you know, like that's a tough thing to ask of someone who's putting something to that's really clever, collaborative, bright, and and it's a lot of fun, your podcast and tight, you know, unlike mine, which is like a bit drawn out. Um, what does he do that gives him that that skill to see what you need?
Sally Brownbill: 48:05
Oh well, we've been together a really long time. He loves me. Um, culturalist by trade, so he's very creative, but guitars are always been his passion. And you know, everyone loves a brief, don't they? Yeah, and he knows Harri and I, and he knows how we chat and he gets the vibe of it. And it's like he just really enjoys like throughout COVID, he I did lots of photos and he'd make music and we put these things together, and that's his thing. Like at night time, I just need to sit and veg in front of Netflix sometimes, and he'll go in there and he'll jam. You know, we've got 12 guitars currently and counting. Um, so it's it's just so he's a music producer, is he? No, he's a horticulturalist.
Paul Atkins: 48:47
That's what he does full time.
Sally Brownbill: 48:48
That's how lovely full time, you know. He manages all of the open spaces at Monash University. Um, and before that he was at the National Trust. And um, yeah, so he's very creative. We have two beautiful gardens, and um Wow. But his thing, he doesn't read music, he just listens and then he plays.
Paul Atkins: 49:07
That's amazing skills.
Sally Brownbill: 49:08
And you mentioned Garage Band before, like one of his favorite things, and he's got his own little setup, he's got his own little studio downstairs, and yeah, it's his thing. So long time ago, he decided in many years when he retires, he had to have things that he could do, and it was golf, uh, guitars and gardening. Right? Right. You see, when you're younger, you see like your older siblings and stuff retire and go, Well, you've done nothing with your life. I'm gonna keep busy, and obviously I'm never gonna stop. So um, he's getting right into it. It's really fun.
Paul Atkins: 49:37
Oh, that's lovely.
Sally Brownbill: 49:37
And a horticulturalist is you know, like it's great, it's activity, it's outside, it's with nature, and he's very fit and healthy and always has a tan and uh and includes me in it because he he gets I've got a good visual sense. So at the moment, the the garden I I just really needed yellow and red and purple, you know. It was like, let's do it, you know. So, and then everything I like is a weed, of course. So then he goes, Well, we're not gonna have that, but I'll get something that looks like it that's not a weed. And I'll go, right, okay, thank you.
Paul Atkins: 50:11
That's so lovely.
Sally Brownbill: 50:12
Or how long's that tree gonna take to hide the ugly neighbor's house? Oh, that's pretty slow growing. Next, I want something that's gonna be big, like in three years, and it's like this constant Sal, slow down, nature takes time, and that's what he is for me. He's very grounded.
Paul Atkins: 50:30
It's very meditative, that stuff, and I think it's really healthy for all of us to have someone like that around, you know.
Sally Brownbill: 50:35
Well, the other thing when you talked about having business, I mean, we just we made a decision. I made a decision very early on in our when we got together that we would not both be freelancers. I think that would have been really hard for us.
Paul Atkins: 50:50
So that's interesting.
Sally Brownbill: 50:52
Always he was going to have a full-time job and I was gonna just fuck around and do what I wanted to do.
Paul Atkins: 50:57
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sally Brownbill: 50:58
Exactly the terms we used.
Paul Atkins: 51:00
But it made my life reduce your life's work to fuck around.
Sally Brownbill: 51:04
Yeah, it made my life uh or our life a lot more um even killed. And we both needed that. So we both wanted to own a house and we both wanted to build a beach house ultimately. And you know, forget we've been together 30 years, so it's not happened overnight. But when it's been tough for me, as you asked way earlier on, we've always had a salary.
Paul Atkins: 51:27
Yeah, yeah.
Sally Brownbill: 51:28
When it's been really good for me, I've stuffed the money away where I've needed to, and I've done that and everything, and then it's been hard again, but we've always had his salary, right? And and I think that that's a very fortunate thing. If I had been on my own, I would have always had a a job that managed that, and I could have done this on the side, which is what I did earlier days before I was so um having a stream, an income stream, whether it's something else you do or someone else you're with, um, or if you're very young and you can stay at home for a little bit longer and not pay rent till you get your mojo going. You know, there's all those sorts of things that is actually a business decision as well as a life decision that I think people overlook.
Paul Atkins: 52:06
That's brilliant, brilliant advice. I love that stuff. So tell me, what's next for Sally? What are you looking at? I know you've got another book in your head, which we're not going to ask you about, but and you've got another season of um when Harri met Sally.
Sally Brownbill: 52:18
Um that next season's coming up. Um, I'm starting to interview two people. Well, I've I've picked two people for the interviews for next year. So I will wait to see what their skill sets are, whoever I choose, uh, and then I will work within those skill sets. So um what's next is certainly the third season of the podcast. We are also gonna start looking at I've got it, we've got a couple of great ideas for pop-ups for later in the year, which um are also gonna be really exciting. Um the book is is actually not a book about creativity, it's actually uh it's gonna be a book about my dad.
Paul Atkins: 52:55
Oh, how lovely.
Sally Brownbill: 52:56
Um and it's gonna be called the working title is If I wanted milk in my tea, I would have asked for it.
Paul Atkins: 53:03
I love that. That's some Zen level stuff.
Sally Brownbill: 53:07
Yeah. And it's um, I've just I've I've become I've really enjoyed writing. I'm very visual, but because I talk so much, I've decided I write like I talk, but then I have this wonderful editor that can edit it down so it's not as waffly. Um, but that's really what that's going to be about. And um, and also we've managed to build this beautiful home down on the Great Ocean Road, and I I spend a lot of time down there working as well. So it's been this I've got to a point where I've got this lovely work-life balance, but it hasn't always been like that. Yeah. Um and I just want I want more of that, really.
Paul Atkins: 53:45
Yeah, I know. I kind of feel the pull of not working a bit every now and then. Uh, but then I find myself bored and dangerous, you know. And I think you'd be one person who'd be dangerous if you didn't have something to do.
Sally Brownbill: 53:57
Oh, yeah. That I am never bored, right? So apart from what I'm doing and all the things I talk to you about on Thursdays for two hours every week, I do pottery.
Paul Atkins: 54:06
Oh, that's fabulous.
Sally Brownbill: 54:07
So I make, I do hand building, so I make all sorts of amazing stuff and some crap stuff as well. But I just love it. That's my thing, as well as the exercise every morning. But that's hugely important to me in a big part of my world. And when I'm down the beach, I know you're not gonna believe this, but I actually weave.
Paul Atkins: 54:27
Wow.
Sally Brownbill: 54:28
I create and my when mum passed away, I inherited a lot of her jewelry, and a lot of it was just um uh like not real jewelry. Some of it was all diamonds and lovely and nice, but um a lot of it was just you know, what's the word I'm looking for? Like not junk jewelry, but junk jewelry if you're like, Yeah, well, yeah, I know what you mean.
Paul Atkins: 54:47
Um it's nothing wrong with that stuff, it's beautiful.
Sally Brownbill: 54:49
Yeah, so I've been I've been making it into weavings with wool that a friend has, you know, lovely and all that stuff. So I I've been doing lots of these beautiful things and it's just and I put on some loud music and often I'll have a glass of champagne and off I go. So, and I love walking, I've got this really needy dog, a staffy. Um, so I'm never bored, Paul, because there is always something to do. And you know what? If there's not anything to do, isn't it great just to do nothing?
Paul Atkins: 55:17
Oh, it's wonderful. Even sit up.
Sally Brownbill: 55:25
But it took me many years to do it. I feel like I'm not hugely older than 50, but I feel like at 50 I really grew up. I really felt like, wow, I've been around a long time. I actually can hold my own in a room now and actually feel very confident. I think my 20s, I was just, you know, banging around the world, having a great time and having fun. And then my 30s, you know, I grew up a little bit and I got married. I had a full-time job for a while and I had lots of responsibilities teaching at RMIT, started to build my business. 40s, it was bang, it was all about building my business. And and by the time I got to my early 50s or 50, it was just like, man, I'm here. I'm still surviving and I'm changing, and I'm and and I think that's really exciting. So one of the biggest things uh that is happening in an industry is this fear of aging and ageism, and um, but I come from a family where my dad went back to university at 50 and retired at 60 and had a whole new career until he was 90.
Paul Atkins: 56:32
Wow.
Sally Brownbill: 56:32
And he's 96 now and he still tries to rule the roost. But I I have no problem whether I'm a uh you know, one of the well, okay, I've got three things I'm trying to say here. I have no problem with how old anybody is. You're as old as you feel, as long as you keep current and relative relevant, yes, you just have to and and find the right audience for yourself. Yes, okay. So if you are 54 and you are trying to work in an indie agency where everybody's 20, that's gonna be really tough.
Paul Atkins: 57:09
Yeah.
Sally Brownbill: 57:09
Um I'm not saying that it is not tougher for older people because older people earn money and there's not a lot of money around, and so a lot of older people have lost their jobs. But then what can you do? Are you gonna start your own business? Are you gonna collaborate with somebody else? Are you gonna go back and do a cert for and maybe teach? So there's all of these alternatives, but don't just sit there and just and be pissed off because that's not gonna help anybody, especially you.
Paul Atkins: 57:34
Yeah, exactly. I think that's that's amazing. Um, I you see a lot of people like just choosing to blame. I mean, of course, the the the environment is blameworthy, but it's not doing anything. You can't change all that stuff, can you? You can only change your response to it.
Sally Brownbill: 57:50
No, you can have mates and sit around like we are now with friends that came down on there and advertising they came away with us on the weekend. And we can all sit and have a bitch and how great it was in the old days. And we all want to do that. But the reality is we're we're currently here, we're all working in it, and let's make the most of it. And for me, it's about surrounding myself with young people, like keeping me cool, keeping me relevant. Um, I'm on TikTok now, who'd have thought? Um, you know, all of those things.
Paul Atkins: 58:16
TikTok's great. I love it.
Sally Brownbill: 58:18
Yeah, but also just um, you know, listening is still in I have older people that are still advising me that maybe are semi-retired or working from home now or doing different things, but they have they have certain amounts of knowledge, whereas the young people have other knowledge that I don't have. And I I know I can only do this much stuff. So surrounding yourself with people that um that help you make you look better, know things that you don't know is equally as important because fuck, I don't know everything. But I don't know everything.
Paul Atkins: 58:49
Yeah. And you know what surprised me? You know, uh us hanging out at the Refocus Retreat, I mean, there's definitely an age group of attendees there. And um we've been to a few other networking stuff over the last year, uh a couple of years actually, some structured groups that probably uh trying to represent the missing AIPP, right? But it's the same people at them, the same age group, they're a bit younger than us, to a bit older than us, but and they're looking around going, where what's going on? Where is everything? And then I've been to a couple of things which has been and and you know, finding where young people hang out. That sounds really old, doesn't it? But where the where they are, what they're doing. And when you tap into that, you go, Oh my God, everything's fine. Like they're busy, they've got lots going on. It's just you just don't see it because perhaps the circles that are moving in, perhaps the these groups are a little insular, they're not looking broader, perhaps you know, young people don't want to turn up in those sort of environments. But I think you've got a great strategy in that you've kept yourself in contact with university and in contact with that. So you you're getting that information and that feeling that, you know, everything's great. It's it's going better than it ever has gone to. Some extent. It's just very different than it ever was.
Sally Brownbill: 1:00:03
I couldn't agree more. And I started out in 1997 at roughly a similar age to the students. I was only probably three or four years older. And they were advertising students and photography students. And so now those guys and girls are they own advertising agencies. They are hugely important. But every year, right down to currently now, I'm still working with students. So I've always been able to keep that relevance. And um, and I do hang out with a huge variety, and it's why my network is so wide. And it's not just in photography, it's in people that employ photographers as well. So I get both sides of the so I can really talk about how to approach people. One of the earliest things I learned from a creative director was she said to me, How come you only as an agent ever bring me car photographers? And I went, Is this a joke? And she said, No, why? And I said, Because you are the creative director for the biggest car company in the country. Right? And she said, Yeah, but I know the car photographers I'm gonna work with. There's three, and they're the only ones I'm gonna work with. I'm interested in seeing landscape, fashion, portraiture, what I might be able to do with the cars. And I went, oh really? And that changed my whole thought. And I thought, fuck, we're doing this wrong. We're doing this wrong. We're trying to tailor folios or websites for people that we what we think they need. But do you know what? You can never second guess what somebody wants to see. So the only thing you need to be putting into your portfolio is what you want to be doing, and they will either want to work with you or not.
Paul Atkins: 1:01:41
That's such a great point. Because that's you, like anything else is someone you're pretending to be.
Sally Brownbill: 1:01:46
Correct. And you don't know what meeting they've just come out of, and they might have just won, you know, the Grey Cup client, or they might have just lost the pen client, then you've got on with, you know, a whole folio of pens. So um, you know, you have to you have to feel it in your gut and your heart and put out there what it is that you want to be doing. So if you want to be a jewelry photographer, don't just put portraits in.
Paul Atkins: 1:02:07
Yeah, show pictures of jewelry, exactly.
Sally Brownbill: 1:02:09
Yes, um, and and show people like me in October. What livens me and what deadens me? I started doing this many years ago with a very dear friend of mine who's an ex-creative director, Sherry MacIver, and and I went, oh, what deadens me is this, and what and so every year I rethink it. What did I love about this year? What don't I want to do again this year? And so next year will be better. Yeah, you know, and and every year just gets better and better because I refine what my what my situation is, what my needs are, what my wants are. This year, as I said, has been particularly hard because there's not been a lot of money around. So it was a decision, you know, and I'm quite open with all of that with everybody because it's not like you know, I'm you know, making money left, right, and centre. I have done, absolutely, but moving back home was uh a necessity. I mean, I was renting this huge, gorgeous space, but I actually just couldn't afford it. It was just like what this is really tough. So you've but own it. You gotta you gotta go, okay. I'm not gonna be silly about this and go into silly amounts of worry. I am going to move back home.
Paul Atkins: 1:03:14
Yeah.
Sally Brownbill: 1:03:15
And so now the dog loves it, the husband loves it, my washing's done on time, you know, all that sort of stuff. But you know, and I can nick out and see dad at lunchtime, and I can I'm not thinking, oh, I can stay down the beach if I don't have any meetings, I stay down there, right? Um and I might do a Zoom meeting from down there or whatever, but if I don't have meetings, I don't need to come back. So because I felt like I had to, because I was renting this huge space and it was empty.
Paul Atkins: 1:03:42
Yeah, yeah. That's a that's a terrible thing. And but it's hard to let go of that stuff, and it's it is and you and there are some things that you can't what did you use the term in deaden you that dead deaden and liven. Yeah, the there's some things that deaden that you can't give to someone else or get rid of. And sometimes you just have to, you know, just do those in the quickest, most efficient way possible.
Sally Brownbill: 1:04:06
Yeah, and I think I think life is just about, you know, you have to do fuck-ups to understand the good time, or you have to work with really shitty people sometimes to uh to appreciate the good ones. And you know, that you gotta you gotta look at the positive out of everything. And yeah, sometimes I'll just like I rang my husband, something had happened today, and I rang him, and I just went, I just have to go. And he goes, Do you feel better? I went, Yep, okay, next bye. I went, you know.
Paul Atkins: 1:04:31
What a what a legend.
Sally Brownbill: 1:04:32
Don't hold on to it, just blurt it out to whoever's the closest and um and move on.
Paul Atkins: 1:04:38
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, look, this has been a little over an hour. We've had such a lovely chat. Um, I'll get from you, please, any links of anything you want to share with me that I can pass on on the podcast episode. Terrific. Um, because I know people want to follow up. Um, in the past, we found that people do like to see uh what you know, the deeper look at people and do a bit of research themselves. And you never know, you might get some um clients from that. I know your mentoring is exceptional. I know people who've been mentored by you, and you are that other set of eyes and set of ears that we all need. And it's so great having you about the industry, Sally. Thank you, thank you so much for everything.
Sally Brownbill: 1:05:21
Oh, Paul. And it was lovely for to for you to make this happen as well. This was quite um when I rang you to ask you if something else, and you said actually I was going to give you a call. What? And um, so this was a real surprise. And I spoke to Harri about it as well, and she's equally as excited to to have her interview. And it's really nice that because we are often interviewed together, so it's lovely to have us separate two.
Paul Atkins: 1:05:44
So I can I can hear when you are together, there's more you want to say, and there's more Harriet wants to say, and that's why I wanted to get you alone.
Sally Brownbill: 1:05:54
You should see us. We are hilarious. There's all these like, you know, and things like this, and then um, yeah, it is very funny. But um, next year will be funny because we're videoing it as well.
Paul Atkins: 1:06:05
Oh, good luck with that. I've done that and I gave up. It was too scary and hard.
Sally Brownbill: 1:06:10
I know.
Paul Atkins: 1:06:10
I think I think I had to get my face on every time, sunshine.
Sally Brownbill: 1:06:14
Oh, as long as you get the right lip colour, you're fine.
Paul Atkins: 1:06:17
Well, that's great. Well, thank you again for your time.
Sally Brownbill: 1:06:19
My pleasure, Paul.
